Harkness writes and presents BBC Radio 4 documentaries including the series FutureProofing and How To Disagree, and Are You A Numbers Person? for BBC World Service. She formed the UK’s first comedy science double-act with neuroscientist Dr. Helen Pilcher, and has performed scientific and mathematical comedy from Adelaide (Australia) to Pittsburgh PA with partners including Stand Up Mathematician Matt Parker and Socrates the rat.
Her latest solo show, Take A Risk, hit the 2019 Edinburgh Festival Fringe with randomized audience participation and an electric shock machine. A fellow of the Royal Statistical Society, she’s a founder member of their Special Interest Group on Data Ethics. Timandra’s book Big Data: does size matter? was published by Bloomsbury Sigma in 2016.
Episode Description
On a recent episode of Stats+Stories, Timandra Harkness talked with us about the rise of today’s data economy. On today’s episode of Stats and Short Stories we want to shift the focus to the future of that data economy and how advancing technologies like the metaverse will play in.
+Full Transcript
John Bailer
On a recent episode of Stats and Stories, Timandra Harkness talked with us about the rise of today's data economy. On today's episode of Stats and Short Stories, we want to shift the focus to the future of that data economy and how advancing technologies like the metaverse will play in. I'm John Bailer. Stats and Stories is a production of Miami University's departments of statistics in media, journalism and film as well as the American Statistical Association. Joining me as a panelist is Brian Tarran, editor of Significance magazine, Rosemary Pennington is away. Our guest is writer, comedian and presenter Timandra Harkness. Harkness writes and presents documentaries for BBC Radio, and is the author of the book Big Data the size matters. She is a fellow of the Royal Statistical society and a founding member of their special interest group on data ethics for a four part series and Significance magazine, discussing the data economy and its future. Brian, I think you had a question related to this to start our chat.
Brian Tarran
Such abajo we've been talking about your four part series on the data economy, the history of the data economy, and Part Four ended with a look at what the possible future of the data economy might be all the changes we're seeing now what that might mean for you know, for those companies that operate in this space. Now, it was literally weeks after we'd signed the magazine. Often it was as you know, we have the printers, Facebook and meta and the metaverse became a huge talking point. I didn't know what it was so I had to look it up. It turns out there were lots of overnight experts about the metaverse and what it would be and what it would do. But I thought that actually, given the proximity to this series, and this, you know, this new announcement from Facebook, I wondered if you had a perspective on how the metaverse idea might change the possible future for the data economy and in what ways it might change.
Timandra Harkness
The Metaverse myth, the idea that you live, or certainly an interactive virtual environment is in a way, it's going to be a thing, it's going to be a digital space in which people do stuff. But in a way, it's also a great metaphor for the way that the digital economy works in the sense that a lot of the digital economy is about observing each of us in our everyday life and turning that into digital information. And of course, the more we do that through technology, the easier that gets. But if you're doing everything in a Metaverse, then everything you're doing is already translated into digits. So the way that you move, the way your eyes look in virtual space. So who are watching, looking at your movements, your facial expressions, who you talk to, obviously, but also the implicit things that the behavioral things that you're not aware of will all be automatically turned into digital information in Facebook's hands. So I mean, that in a sense is the complete counter to the move towards people having more control of their own data. Because if everything you do is just generating digital information all the time, then it's collected by default, and can be analyzed by default. And none of us will know really what exactly Facebook is applying to that and how it's using it to better understand our predictors. So I think that is like the counterpoint to a, we'll all have control over our own data and a useful counterpoint because, in reality, obviously, we're not going to live in a future where each of us has control over all the data about us individually. And if we turn the tap off, we would suddenly disappear from the digital universe because you know, your bank is still going to have all the information about you and your travel card is still going to generate information about where you've been. So it's a bit of a myth that we have complete control. But certainly in the metaverse, lots of things that you're not really aware you're doing like where your eyes go, or even as I'm talking now see, I'm slightly hesitating as I think all that sort of thing probably could be used by some algorithm to determine whether I'm spontaneously thinking as I speak. If you really wanted to get some psychologists involved, they could probably try and infer why I feel hesitant about certain words and what emotions are not necessarily very accurate. But you know, well enough to convince some advertiser that you've got great insight into my mental state. And then presumably, in this Metaverse, there will be billboards and personalized adverts which only I will see and that will pick up Oh, my insecurities in that moment or see where my eyes are going and give me more stuff like that. It will be interesting to see how much it changes. But yes, I think you're right. I think it's like the counterbalance to the more explicit control over data.
Brian Tarran
And I couldn't help but think actually, that it linked to a one of the comments that you signed off the article, which was about, you know, these companies not really wanting to get to know us personally, they just kind of want to get in between us and whatever it is we want to do so that they can help to influence that. And that this just seems like, perfectly, perfectly getting in the way of everything. If you don't, if our entire online life is in the metaverse right there in their, their present, the opportunities for influencing, I guess, are manifold, if not infinite?
Timandra Harkness
Yeah, I mean, it will always be like, they will be the water in which we swim as fish.
John Bailer
So just as again, in the real life part of our world, that we will continue to live, I hope. I don't want to be a battery for some future machine. So my question is, how much will the devices that are part of the Internet of Things start to play out as being embedded in this? You know, I can, I can well imagine that we're going from these being novel, things that we might add on to devices we purchase, to being default and fully integrated. And so if that's how this occurs, you know, that seems like that kind of that separation between what we're doing in a Metaverse versus what we're doing in real life starts to get closer and more and more connected.
Timandra Harkness
I think you're absolutely right. I mean, the default now is for devices to be supposedly smart, but certainly connected. So your fridge maybe, or your central heating system will all be connected not only to the electricity supply, but also to the internet. I mean, cars, for example, cars now, by default, are connected to the internet. So they can not only be electronically monitored to see if they get a break down. But also they know where you go, how well you drive, this kind of thing. At the moment, I think use of that data is quite patchy and opportunistic, but I think it's easy to see how that can all be connected up. So yes, you know, in a way, maybe even if we don't log into Facebook, Metta World, maybe we will all be living in the metaverse to a greater or lesser extent, unless we go back to only using technology made in the 20th century.
John Bailer
Yes, as we close this episode that we're recording virtually with two of us in you know, in one country and one in a different country. And it seems so seamless now. I mean, it's inconceivable that a decade ago would be as seamless today, one can only imagine what a decade in the future will appear. So tomorrow, that's all the time we have for this episode of SATs and a short story. Thank you so much for joining us again. It's a pleasure. That's in stories is a partnership between Miami University's departments of statistics and media, journalism and film in the American Statistical Association. You can follow us on Twitter, Apple podcasts or other places where you can find podcasts. If you'd like to share your thoughts on our program. Send your email to StatsandStories@miami.oh.edu Or check us out at statsandstories.net and be sure to listen for future editions of Stats and Stories where we discuss the statistics behind the stories and the stories behind the statistics.